EPISODE 11:
HOW TO SELL MORE
MARKETING FUNNELS: HOW AND WHY THEY WORK

00:00
All right, Bali Business Club. Here we are with Neil Ateem Today we’re talking everything performance marketing, sales funnels, how to sell your product in the best, most efficient way. Neil is a 12 year performance marketing veteran, freshly moved to Bali. So we’re going to discuss all those things. Yeah, so thank you for joining us and we’ll see you right now. All right, Bali Business Club. Here we are today with Neil, Ateem, and we’re in our new studio called Voxpop Studio. Check us out on Instagram.
00:37
We just launched. So if you’d like to come rent it or make an inquiry, just let us know. But here today I’m with Neil Ateem, founder of Multiplier Agency, fresh off the boat from Bali Yeah, it’s been a couple of months. Yeah, it’s a little over a month. Okay. And you’re staying out in Seseh? Seseh, Cemagi Cool. So just to set you up, you’re the founder of Multiplier Agency. What are you exactly? Like, how would you define? What is your, like, Multiplier Agency does what? How would you outline it?
01:14
Yeah, I mean, the elevator pitch is basically we help companies scale their revenue tagline is, I help companies add another comma to their revenue. Usually just work with the scaling side of things. So when you have the products, the offers, everything that basically needs to multiply, right? So I help companies essentially sell more, scale, grow. And what kind of, like, what kind of sector specifically? Digital products, e-commerce or? So it’s mostly been digital products because that’s majority of my background
01:48
for over a decade already with online courses, events, high ticket certifications, you name it, like anything in that realm. Okay. And I see you’ve generated over 300 million in revenue for your clients or brands you’ve worked with. You’ve worked with Mindvalley. I’m sure everybody knows Mindvalley all over YouTube. What’s that good lady’s name? Helen Hansel drives everybody nuts Go daddy and Mindvalley. So you work with Mindvalley with a massive hundred and hundreds of millions of dollars business.
02:25
Catcha group, Jordan Peterson. Yeah. 12 rules for life. Yeah. At coaching.com. Yeah. Yeah. To name a few Okay. Wow. And you’re author of your own book. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Tell us a bit about that. So when I quit corporate, this was during the global event. I don’t think I should say it because it get censored. So when there was the shutdown of the world, I quit my job after eight years in corporate. And then I decided to write this book that I would give to my younger self maybe 10 years ago. So it’s called “Get Your Shit Together”,
03:01
the life guide for young adults. So it’s basically a really simple book straightforward to the point, just like me. So yeah, I got it out. I published it self published and then probably did a couple hundred sales across the world, different places, you know, everyone who knows me supported. It was just a nice thing to do, a nice project to get out, you know, and I wrote it like in a really fast timeframe. That’s for younger people, I presume. Yeah. Yeah. Like kids not kids, but I would say like the
03:31
average 18 year old 17 year old. Yeah. How to get their life together. But the funny thing is I have some friends like in Germany and then they were gifting it to even adults like not young adults, but you know, more mature adults, even like a football player and stuff who was playing professional and he read the book and then he was like, wow, this is so good. You know, so I felt good about that. Just just knowing that something I put out there is helping people no matter what stage they are in their journey.
04:00
How long did it take you to write? 127 days. Exactly. Yes. Okay. Okay. Awesome. And you just have a kid, young boy. I presume he’s got something to read when he gets a bit older. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And why did you move to Bali? Like what was the motivating factor? Yeah. I mean, I lived in Kuala Lumpur before, visited Bali over the time I stayed there and just for vacation and stuff and exploring and really fell in love with the place, the island, the people like this was before it exploded and,
04:32
you know, turned into all of this now. So since then I was like, wow, I maybe can live here, you know, and I just tested it out after some time after leaving the job and going back home to the Caribbean and then deciding to come out here and give it a test. And then, yeah, I love it. I love it here, yeah. the most, uh, let’s say difficult few things moving to Bali. Difficult, more, more unique kind of experience. I mean, I can’t take my son out on the stroller because there isn’t really no sidewalk,
05:07
no sidewalk, but now they’re getting sidewalk. So yeah, it’s still dangerous. Yeah. Very. It’s like parking and scooters driving there. I sometimes do it myself, but, um, yeah, um, maybe it doesn’t have like the best infrastructure like you would get in a European city or, but I mean, the pros outweigh the cons here for me. And it fits my lifestyle. Well, my family wants as well, like closer to nature, karma, uh, out of the city, one of the most important things. So yeah, that’s why I enjoy it,
05:37
I think everywhere has ups and downs, you know, and here’s one of the few places on earth where you can sleep with your door open and you don’t have to worry about your safety and stuff because even in the most civilized Western city right now, it’s, it’s very dangerous. So, um, so where are you actually, where are you formerly from? Where abouts in the world are you from? So I was born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Long, long way from home. Yeah. Really far.
06:03
I went to Kuala Lumpur. Um, never been there. Never been to Asia before. Didn’t even know where Malaysia was or Kuala Lumpur was, but I just took the leap. So how did that happen? Yeah. Because, the job offer was there, right? when I applied, I came across Mindvalley. Oh, it’s the Oh mindvalley, so their based there I presume? yeah, the head office is in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia because I the founder, the CEO, is is Malaysian. he doesn’t live there, but the company was based there. and I went through the whole process.
06:33
It took like six months. Like it was a crazy journey. You know, I had to go to like Cuba to get a visa in order to, to go there and stuff. there and stuff. So it was like, uh, yeah, a whole journey for six months, just getting everything ready and then, uh, resigning from my old job after five years. That offer was open for six months. So it took you, so that was like the interview process and a lot of things were changing at the same time in terms of the company structure and all of this. With Mindvalley, yeah? Yeah.
06:57
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, um, so you must’ve started when it was relatively small because it was, uh, um, no, at the time it was already, uh, pretty substantial. Like, I think, uh, not, not the scale of what it is today, but, uh, it was already doing like millions every year, you know? Yeah. And what was your first role there? Like what, what, what does it do? Yeah. So this is the funny part. Like I applied in a, in a marketing role and, um, at the time I had an agency as well before this, which I sold when I left the country.
07:25
Uh, so I did that, uh, moonlighting while I had my corporate job and then, uh, yeah. And then, um, angry comments. So then, uh, at the same time I had uh, at the same time I had this, going for me with the marketing side. So I was building experience on this side, just out ofpassion, right? Because I’m trained and certified, degrees and everything in, in computer science. So marketing was more of passion thing. And then, uh, so I applied for this role and by the time I got like three months into the interview process,
07:59
it was really long at that time. Um, multiple interviews, even with the CEO and stuff back then, uh, the role had changed. So then they asked me like, would I still want to join, but in a customer support position until they find a different role. So imagine being five years in oil and gas, my salary is really good, moving to Malaysia, taking a huge downgrade and starting here, but I was willing to do it, you know, uh, because I, I know I would get out of there. Maybe just to get out of the country or,
08:24
okay. And, and also you’d have missed it three months in in a process. I’m already in it. Like, uh, just go for it, you know, like, um, and at the time, like much less responsibilities than I had now. So it was easy to, to just make the jump, you know, I had savings and everything. So, um, decided to start in customer support. And then a few months in, I got, uh, looped into the marketing team. And, uh, as soon as I kick it off, like a first launch I did was like a million dollar launch, you know, and then I
08:51
started delivering until I eventually worked my way up and I left as the head of subscriptions. Okay. So tell us what exactly does mindvalley do? What is their business model? What did you do to help them and support them? And then you said you went into subscriptions. Were they doing that before you got involved or was it something that you brought in? Like how did that whole thing unravel? Yeah. So let me see how I can say this without, you know, giving out any internal intel. We like that kind of thing, yeah, it’s fine
09:21
So essentially Mindvalley is like probably the world’s leading personal growth company, right? Everything from help mindset, meditation, manifesting, you name it. And there’s the woo woo side of it, and then there’s the, uh, the more grounded side of it, because, you know, they are already on airlines. Uh, if you go into any Apple store right now, you’ll see the Mindvalley app installed by default, right? And there’s millions of devices across the world. So that’s how you this is a huge day. I know.
09:48
Um, so it has something for everyone, essentially, uh, whatever you’re working on to improve yourself, the things that school didn’t teach you essentially. So that’s, that’s the whole concept of it. Now, how is this delivered? Uh, there’s a, a way that, uh, the products, the online courses and stuff are delivered is called quests. So basically it’s dripped every day for 20 minutes. And you can complete a quest within 20 to 30 days It’s really structural, its not just an online course where you go and you
10:17
just consume it all in one. It’s, it’s, it’s, it really has a lot behind it to bring transformation because at the core of it, it’s a transformational company. Right. So it’s a journey, a transformational journey. It doesn’t matter what product you get in it will take you on that kind of, yeah. And I did like, I was involved with like, uh, Anthony Robbins back in the day, similar kind of thing. Yeah. You do one thing and then leads into the journey into other. Exactly. And basically, uh, it’s getting
10:41
the best authors in the world and learning from them directly. Right. So whoever books you may be reading, there’s a possibility, um, uh, there an author on Mindvalley. So courses is one, then there’s the events and they have events that, uh, is pretty wild. Like for example, uh, every year they do an event called Mindvalley University where you move to Europe for an entire month with your family, maybe a week to a month, uh, with your entire family. And it’s like a whole city turns into a university where there’s sessions every day.
11:11
There’s, um, events for kids and a lot happening basically an entire month. It usually happens in Tallinn Estonia. I’ve been to two already and it’s pretty wild. It’s crazy. Like, so the whole experience at Mindvalley lasted, what? A Year and Three years, three years. Okay. So personally and, uh, in a professional perspective, cause you’re still quite young at that point. what do you think it actually taught you? What core learnings did it teach you in over those three years? I honestly, I can’t sum it up
11:40
because at that point that three years was the most transformative period of my life. Like, cause literally working for a transformative company. Exactly. Exactly. Working in a role was transformative. Yeah. So like my personal journey in it and you know, just being around this all the time as well. Right. Because for me, I was leaving a really small place, a tiny island, you know, living in a village, uh, to moving out in Kuala Lumpur and living this, this life and meeting people from like over 50 nationalities,
12:11
just working together in one place is crazy. Right. And at that time it was ranked as one of the top offices in the world. Right. Like really beautiful office. Like amazing. You would spend from morning till night there. And it just goes by because you’re working amongst people who are really inspirational from every corner of the world. And then in addition to this, like they really take care of your personal growth. Like, uh, we did programs and stuff like where they’ll take us to retreats for a weekend,
12:38
uh, and go deep into different categories of your life. And some people even quit after that, right? Realizing like, Oh, I don’t want to pursue this. I want to do something else. And they’re completely okay with that because it’s invested into your growth as a person, um, uh, outside of just career and everything. And yeah, in addition to that, we had like some crazy stuff in terms of like, um, the, the perks and all this. Like we had some really good parties and stuff. Like my second day at Mindvalley,
13:08
they flew us out to an island, uh, for like three days for their team retreat. So imagine me leaving, going into this and then immediately just flew out onto this island and, uh, having the team retreat and stuff. Must’ve been like saucepan. Oh man. It was, it was insane. But yeah, in addition to that, like, uh, just being out there, uh, really in a new place, uh, with new people, everything really expanded my mind to think really, uh, differently and much bigger than I did before. So the big question is why did you leave?
13:40
Why did I leave? Um, so I think everyone does after I say it in the amount of time. A few years is reasonable length of time, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually five to seven is the first stint. Yeah. So I had already put in a lot of time in corporate, right? And then at that time, yeah. Yeah. And I know what it was like to be an entrepreneur. I sold an agency before So the thing is at that point in time, the situation was lockdowns and everything in Kuala Lumpur is really strict. You couldn’t leave your apartment
14:12
unless you were going to the grocery police would stop you. So after two or three months of that started going a bit crazy. And, um, yeah, as we all did. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I decided, okay, it’s, it’s here now. And I just made like a sudden decision. It’s time. And my only objective was to write this book. Um, and I didn’t have a plan, uh, had limited savings at the time. Like, and I had to leave, uh, Kuala Lumpur because once you end the visa ends as well, everywhere was locked down. I got into Europe.
14:45
Okay. So you left Mindvalley. I mean, you obviously learned 10 years worth of things in three years. Um, and then you did some work for Jordan Peterson. When did that come along? This was later on. Um, I think this was maybe just two years ago. So, um, that, that’s when I started doing more freelancing and everything. And, um, I was involved in like another agency as well. And, um, at this time we were running campaigns and everything for these type of authors. And then yeah, the black Friday campaign came up
15:17
and then, um, so you’re working at another agency at this time. Hadn’t set up your agency. Yeah. Yeah. So when, when I quit my job, I did something. I, um, I went, uh, to someone, uh, who, who I know interested, uh, to be like my mentor, right? Uh, so essentially someone who’s a couple of steps ahead. And I told him like, listen, I’m going to work with you for one year. Um, that’s my timeline. I’m giving myself and he agreed and we’re going to build something. It wasn’t going to be an agency initially. Like
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I didn’t know what he was going to build, but I was like, let’s do it. And then it turned into an agency. Um, until I, I went out on my own. So, uh, with that, we were taking on clients and, you know, I helped build things up from round up, you know, processes, everything handling the clients, uh, doing the campaigns, like, uh, the copy, you name it. And that was the agency you have now. Well, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I suppose we should get into the kind of nuts and bolts.
16:16
I’m sure a lot of people here, you know, want to understand how this works, how sales funnels works, performance, marketing, how they fit together, what to do, what not to do. Why don’t you just give us a bit of a outline or summary of like, what is a sales funnel? How does it work? Um, how do you see it? Where do you see most people stumbling when they try and do these things? Maybe just give us a top line summary to start. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Essentially, um, a sales funnel is a bridge. So you have your offer and
16:51
you may be solving a problem, providing a service, whatever it may be. And on this side, you have your potential customer. You may call it a lead or prospect, whatever it is. So a sales funnel is that bridge that helps get them over to the other side. Now, there is this perception that marketers or salespeople are manipulative and all this. So there’s one thing I need to make clear before we go into it. Well, that’s debatable. Um, yeah. Like, but everything is marketing, right? Like from the government to like, uh,
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conversation with your friend is, exactly everything, everything convincing your kid, talking to your spouse, it is sales, it’s persuasion. And there’s an outcome, that you want to get. Essentially, a sales funnel or the process of selling to someone to me is bringing benefit to that person. whether they’re getting a service, whether it’s a product, whatever it may be. Now there’s a multitude of ways you can do that. So my focus is on online or digital marketing. So there’s many ways you can sell things right,
17:55
into there as well. So and everything probably exists is a sale. There’s a funnel involved. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It’s been some form of funnel to get to that point. Correct. Correct. So everything. So when we say sales funnels, technically, it’s just a sales process. It’s just a process exactly. So a funnel is just a term, right? But it’s a sales process. Now, you may be using something like a webinar where you invite someone to a session where you give value and then you ask for the sale.
18:23
So, okay, to make a sale, you need to, to have a few elements, right? So there’s a lot of them, but I’ll just touch on a few of the most important ones. So one is trust. One is authority. So trust meaning, okay, is this person not going scam me? Authority : Is this, does this person know what he or she is saying? Are they really an authority in this thing that they’re talking about? Um, social proof is another one. Has this product service, whatever been proven. So there’s a few more, but if you can help bridge that you’re
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already communicate those five or six elements, well on your way. Yes. Then I saw there’s a whole product side, which is value. What is your product? Exactly. Perceptions, what solutions is it solving? Correct. So it can be solving a problem or it can just be adding value to their life or making their life better. Like, or it could be a service, you know, so depends on what it is, right? Okay. But with online marketing, now what you’re basically doing is taking people who are just looking at a screen and getting them to
19:24
take out their credit card and make a purchase. Like that’s essentially it, right? So how can you do that in the least amount of steps possible? Because, uh, you want to have basically a sales process where it takes the least amount of steps, because the most steps you have means more friction and people drop off at every point in time, right? So any good market is, they would measure every, every point and see where people are dropping off. So you want to close this distance as much as possible. So how
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do you do that? Well, today, there are several funnels that work really well. So one can be a webinar funnel, as I mentioned, and on this webinar, like I said, you deliver value, but it covers one very important thing, which is reciprocity. So reciprocity is if, let’s say, for example, a simple case, if you go dining out and then the waiter brings your bill and gives you a chocolate, you’re coming like, wow, I got a chocolate. Wow. I need to tip this guy. That’s that, you know, so that, but that’s a
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really simple way. And it is used, right? Like it can be a mint that they bring for you, but, uh, studies show that the tips are high when they do that. Right. The last meal of the day, which is usually a meal is a, is a coffee and a chocolate and you make it the basis. The meal is remembered. Exactly. Exactly. So that that’s reciprocity working there. Right. So in the form of a webinar training, whatever it may be, if you use this type of funnel, essentially you spend time with that person, they’ve spent time with you.
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They get to know, uh, you build more trust with you, and then they’ve gotten value from you. Then they’re more inclined to, uh, reciprocate. So that’s, that’s the, the core, um, uh, element behind a webinar funnel. I suppose value is, uh, yeah, which we can touch on later. Yeah. Value is a key element to that. Yeah. So you say webinars for sure. One process or something we’re doing right now with The Kedungu Fund is a webinar, but, um, yeah. So what are the things that are converting, highly converting funnels?
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So another one is a VSL. So VSL is a video sales letter. So video sales letter, and this is, this is nothing new. Uh, this has been around for a really long time. It’s been, you know, a decade already, but it still works because no one has created something that has beaten these things. So it’s, it’s more time tested, right? Um, and a VSL is essentially kind of like a webinar, but it’s more direct sales. Um, and there isn’t like an opt-in. So with a webinar, you need to opt-in, uh, as in put your email,
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your phone number. And like I said, every step there’s drop-off with the VSL. Boom. It’s direct. Here’s the video. Look at it. If you want to proceed, you proceed. So it can be on an ad or it can be on a page. So there’s value, more pitch. Um, I mean, you, you give value as well, right? Like no one is just going to watch a sales pitch, but you need to know how to script this, uh, really well that can sell because there’s like certain scripts out there that sells millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions.
22:19
Um, so, uh, at the core of marketing to me is the messaging is, is the words behind it because it takes words to do a video. It takes words to create an image. It takes words to make words copy on a page, right? And copy is, essentially the text on the page. So every element, uh, it takes strategy. So as I said, uh, VSL, which is more direct, so this can be directly on an ad or an ad that drives to a page that hosts the VSL. Um, another one is a challenge like having something like a five-day challenge,
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which I’m doing right now. Uh, Black Friday is coming up, uh, in this instance. So, um, I’m doing a funnel right now. That is a five-day challenge. And then, uh, the pitch comes in. So imagine someone spending five days, uh, getting value from you. Then after they’re more inclined, right? Like, uh, to, to whatever your offer may be. Um, and of course, in these five days, you need to bring some transformation. You need to get them started on whatever it is that the challenge promises and deliver that. And, um, that’s another
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funnel that performs really well. Um, but this is a long which one ? The challenge funnel, yeah. So how’s that work? Yeah. So the challenge funnel essentially can be like a five-day challenge where I sign up to do something. So for example, let’s say it’s men who want to lose, uh, one kg in five days. Then, you know, every day you’ll give sit in tasks and then you make them, uh, measure up in the beginning, measure up in the end. And if you an deliver that, then they’re like, Oh, this guy knows what he’s doing,
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right? And it can’t be the usual or drink, uh, the word drink, water, sleep, uh, eat less processed food. It needs to be something else. So if you’re just saying what everyone else says, then you’re not engaging. Yeah. So you need to have some unique, uh, meth methodology, paradigm, whatever it may be to actually stand out in the market as well. Um, and then after that, let’s say if you sell coaching or something behind that, then, okay, uh, you’ve delivered this result in five days, uh, as you
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promised, then they would be more inclined to opt in. Yeah. Cause cause cause you’ve proven it, there’s proof social proof and you have the credibility, you have the authority, everything there. So you can go into that. So a five day challenge essentially, uh, takes them through that journey for five days. And then, uh, you have the, the pitch and stuff coming in the sales side. Okay. So that’s three. Yeah. Um, there’s a also doing like events, like, um, uh, an online summit, for example, uh, these work well. So you
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see these all the time. Like you get a bunch of speakers in the summit. Uh, basically you get like some of the most notable speakers you can gather on a specific topic. And then of course the offer needs to be around, uh, the speakers and the topics. Right. So, uh, it’s basically doing lead gen. So lead gen lead generation is getting as much people as possible. Emails is still the number one, um, channel right now, uh, as in like nurturing tool, nurturing conversions, everything, right? Like, uh, one email is, is
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with, um, uh, much more than like 10 followers or 20 followers even, right? Like, because you can have million followers, but if they’re not the right people, the right prospects who would actually put you some something from you, then it’s not really useful. Right. But if you have an email list with a hundred people who’s like, hell yeah, I want whatever this guy is selling or go like, uh, then it’s worth his weight. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Still to this day, um, email is still number one. So having
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an email address should be number one priority if, uh, well second to actually having them convert as a customer, right? Um, so as I mentioned, uh, there was that one, which is, uh, having an online event. So it can be an online summit. You can call it whatever, but, uh, event or on speakers, you get people to sign up for free. And then from there you can have your pitch. Uh, if they’re interested, they buy, of course. Um, then there can be what I call, uh, well, not I call what is called, low ticket, uh, funnels. So, um,
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essentially you sell something that is low ticket, maybe less than a hundred bucks. Uh, so it’s easy to opt in. You don’t have to think much if you’re purchasing something for less than a hundred bucks. I suppose even a free guide works in that category. Yeah. That so the lead magnet, lead magnet is anything that’s free, right? Uh, so the webinar, lead magnet free, low cost. No, no, no. Low ticket is a low cost. Yeah. So anything, anytime you use the concept of lead magnet, lead magnet means it’s free. Um,
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however, if you go with low ticket, it means they’re purchasing and someone who already has their credit card out and is in this, uh, purchasing, uh, mode, let’s say they’re more likely to opt into whatever you may have. So you have things like upsells and stuff, which is another level to it. Right. So you may be selling something like a guide, uh, that, that may be selling for like 30 bucks, let’s say, and you don’t sell anything for 30 bucks, right? 29 bucks. 29.99. Exactly. Um, so I mean, once I
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written the funnel, they’re pretty much there for life, you know, you just got to keep building, building funnels, sub funnels, upsells, all kinds of things. Unless if, if, if you’re good with just one sale, but, uh, if you want to increase your customer lifetime value, which is how much you spend with you over, uh, the relationship that you have with that customer, you want to keep solving problems. You want to see what they need next and help them with that. Right. And take them along that journey. So, um, yeah, this is
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with the low ticket. They basically come in for something low ticket, and then you have an upsell, which is they can opt in of course, um, to something that is bigger ticket, bigger price. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just talking about the funnel, I mean, everybody knows funnel, what are the different stages and how does it work? So, I mean, I know the top would be, you know, awareness, and then below nurturing, like how does it generally work? Yeah. I mean, there’s the, the old concept of what is called AIDA
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AIDA. So, awareness, interest, desire, action. So awareness is where this person, uh, they just got introduced maybe to the problem that the product is solving, you know, and then, um, interests may be, okay, I’m interested in solving this problem as in introduced to that they might have the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they may be aware already that they do have a problem, right? But at least you bring it to top of mind. Um, then you have, so that’s awareness, right? Uh, awareness of the problem and stuff.
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Um, then you have interest, which is, okay, I want to solve this problem. Um, and somewhere in between there, uh, is desire. Okay. Where, okay. The interest is there. Desire is like, okay, I’m taking action now. And then this is where they would become more product aware. Like, okay, there’s this solution, this solution, this solution, right? And then the last one is action, which is actually making the purchase, becoming a customer. So they already at this point, what do we call solution aware? So they
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just need to choose a big leap between those two things being aware and taking action. I mean, yeah, especially as hell of a lot of noise these days. Exactly. Yeah. And that’s, I suppose, where the mastery lies. Exactly. So you need to stand out. Um, that’s, that’s one of the most important elements is, is standing out in a crowded market. Everyone, anyone can, uh, start running ads on anything these days. So how do you actually stand out? The thing is, if you’re saying, Hey, this is my product. It’s a great
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product, buy this product. It’s, you know, a glass with, uh, the capacity of eight ounces that it, uh, that’s not, that’s not really saying anything. But if you can describe the problem that you’re solving or the benefit it will bring to them better than they can describe it themselves. And they get that at all. Wow. This person just described everything I’m feeling or everything I’m thinking or everything I need. Then you have the attention, right? And that’s what you guys, let’s use that as an example.
30:16
So you have a glass. Yeah. Perfectly half full. So, so what, how would you frame that? What would the language be? So the thing is, if you can craft a story then, about the glass than it sells, because glass is something ubiquitous, right? It’s everywhere, anywhere in anyone’s home. So if I can say, okay, this, this glass, uh, is a glass with one, two, three, four. So it’s a hexagon, let’s say, with eight sides. That’s, that’s lame, right? Like, uh, it’s not going to stand out. But if I say, okay, this glass has been coming from
30:50
this factory, uh, created by monks over 3000, uh, let’s say 300 years ago, let’s not go too crazy, right? Uh, and to this day, uh, they’ve been producing this glass by hand and, uh, uh, all proceeds go back towards this monastery. Um, the monks there, uh, this, this is their, their soul, uh, work. They’ve dedicated their lives to perfecting, uh, glass making, and, uh, it’s 100% made in Indonesia. Um, yeah, you could go, you know, that whole kind of, uh, framing as far as like, is the sustainability, uplift, etcetera.
31:26
Could you go into actual solution? Like, as far as how the five eight corners quenching thirst is specifically metabolized at the, I mean, if there was some truth in it, then 100%, right? You can say, okay, it, uh, ionizes the water. Like there must, I’m sure there is some glass like that. Uh, at the moment there is devices. I remember I’ve friends that are biohackers and they think with these devices and stuff. And there’s devices that like ionize the water, charge it with the right particles and all this. So
31:58
that’s the sell for something like that, you know, but for a standard glass, unless it’s like, I don’t know, maybe it’s like, these are special glasses. Yeah. These are special glasses in this studio for sure. Uh, you can say, uh, maybe, uh, Gawain drank from this glass. So then you sell it, you know, but it all comes down to crafting the story for something like this because it’s something ubiquitous. It’s, it’s not one of one. It’s one of many. So for it to stand out, the only thing that would, wouldn’t
32:26
make it stand out in my opinion is the unique story behind it. And if you actually go and highlight this, you know, with content and everything, showing the process of making this glass and everything, then you get people sucked in. They’re like, wow, look at how these monks make these glasses. They wake up at 4 a.m. and they go collect sand and they do this thing. And you know, so then you, you become a fan of this, these, it’s just glasses, but you know, it’s a story behind it and who’s making it. You got to identify with it.
32:50
Yeah. You know, you got a whole story behind it. So your exactly. So then, you know, Gawain comes over, sees his glass and he’s, he’s like, oh, it was an interesting glass. But then you say, Oh, let me tell you about this glass. These come from the monks, you know, they’ve been doing this for 300 years, you know, so it becomes much more than just a glass after that. I mean, you put into the story, you know, and then you got a whole thing like referrals. Exactly. Exactly. So it catches on with word of
33:16
mouth as well. Right. And you can gift this to a friend. And then on the box, the packaging of this, it has the story written, you know, and then of course, the CTA to the Instagram where you go to see, wow, look at how these guys make make these glasses and stuff. So, you know, it can go way beyond that. So awareness, anything else within that, like level of a funnel that is, because I suppose in awareness, you got the whole brand, your whole brand as in your story, what you’re trying to project, what the meaning and
33:45
symbolism in your brand is. And so that all communicates in in awareness and your organic reach, which we can get into later as far as like paid ads and organic, etc. Next, we would move down into more of like the middle part of the funnel, which is our consideration. So it would be considering what you look into. So yeah, how does that kind of reinforcement at that level work? Yeah. So, okay, they’re already aware of a problem that they may have or the fact that they want something that makes their
34:22
life better, let’s say. So you can be solving a problem or you can just be adding value to their life, right? So the consideration phase. Now, this is where they might be prospecting thinking like, Oh, should I do this or this or this? So why this product? So as I just mentioned, one element is storytelling, right? Because you may not be one of one, you may be one of many. So how do you stand out? Sorry, but telling is one element. So here now is where it gets deeper. It’s like having trust, as I mentioned, having
34:51
authority. So knowing when they Google you Google your reviews and stuff, what do they see? What do they find? What do other people say about you? Because it can be that the brand is saying, we are great, and we deliver this and our quality is great. But what are other people saying? Because anyone can say anything about themselves and their own brand. But what are other people saying about it? So having that element covered is really important because if you’re making a purchase, maybe over 100 bucks, you may Google a
35:19
little bit or do some background. So that’s very important. Like what are people saying out there? So consideration is where you would look at things like reviews and stuff, depending on the product or service, but you always want to see like, okay, what’s out there? What are the people saying? Like, for example, if you’re going on Amazon or Lazada or Tokopedia, you look at the amount of stars, the amount of reviews. If you’re going to a restaurant on Google, you look at how many people actually left a review, right?
35:47
I mean, how many of us do actually leave reviews? Not a lot of people, right? It’s like maybe like, yeah, there’s like people who do this, but there’s people who just benefit from it. And that’s just how the world works. It’s the same with creating content as well as a very small fraction. But anyway, having that social proof locked in is what would already give you a boost in the consideration factor. Now, in addition to that, it’s like, okay, you’ve passed that test. How do I know this is for me? How does it fit?
36:16
So this is where you do things like objection handling, as in, you know, let’s say you’re opting into something and you may have certain questions, like, oh, but what about this? Or what about that? So those are objections, right? So if you can answer that somewhere in there, let’s say you have a sales page, or a video sales letter, VSL, as I mentioned, and you can handle those objections right then, then, immediately, you’ve gone over these hurdles, because it’s essentially a bunch of hurdles that you
36:44
may need to go over that’s happening in this person’s mind, right? So it’s basically covering all bases. So then to the point where they get, they get to the stage where they can actually make the click and make the purchase. And I presume the more high ticket value the item is, the more hurdles there are. Exactly. I mean, real high ticket, there could be hundreds of touch points, hundreds of hurdles that you have to deal with. Exactly. So if you’re selling something like I’ve worked on developing
37:10
products up to 100 grand per ticket, right? And the thing is, you’ll notice the behavior of this person, if you can track it, is really different. So they may click on, let’s say, an email or campaign on ad or whatever it is. And from there, it may take days or weeks even to opt in to depend, because it’s a big decision. And then you may think that you’re just selling to one person, but let’s say you’re selling to Gawain, and Gawain needs to talk this over with his partner. The whole family will get involved.
37:44
Exactly. The whole family gets involved for a bigger purchase, right? So there’s so many layers to it. It’s crazy. And I’m sure that goes back to the psychology of making a sale, especially with high ticket stuff. I mean, you got to really understand your buyer, understand what makes them tick, understand everything. Okay, there’s a concept of demographics, right? So you can create an avatar, say, male, 35 years old, athletic bachelor’s degree, growing in Korea, managerial, but that doesn’t say anything.
38:16
However, if you’re going to psychographics, okay, this person wakes up with knee pain every day. He can’t eat red meat, but he enjoys it, but has to go on a strict diet. Because of this, he has inflammation. He has injuries, he wants to play sports, but then you’re getting into this person’s mind and knowing what they’re experiencing and feeling every day. And like I said, if you can touch that in your messaging, then you have that person’s attention because it stands out. And you’re saying exactly how they
38:48
feel exactly what they’re living. So then the possibility of them thinking that this is a match for me increases exponentially that way, right? Yeah, good point. So bottom of the funnel, is then you’re entering like conversion stage. And I’m sure this is where a lot of brands or products kind of lose their way and lose hope, especially if there’s a lot of fall off or they’re struggling to convert, etc. What would you say are the kind of nuggets that you would help people get across the line as far as
39:20
conversion stage? So it depends, right? Like, if it’s a lead magnet, which is something free, it’s different compared to something that is paid. So first things first, you always need to measure and track. So you want to track the conversion rate of this page, which is the amount of people that actually opt into the offer compared to the amount of people that visit. So for example, if you have 100 people visit a page and 10 opt in, that’s 10% conversion rate. If that’s on a product that you’re selling, then
39:48
that’s a good conversion rate, right? Because industry, right? Depending on the product, depending on the ticket size, maybe between 3 and 5% or so. But if it’s a lead magnet, then you can get it maybe like 40%, 50%, even I’ve seen 60%. And there’s a saying in marketing that if you’re not converting at 100%, then you’re not done optimizing. So one of the core elements of a good market is they’re always testing and optimizing because you can always get one more percent. And when you scale that to in
40:20
the millions or 1%, you know, it adds up, right? So how do you actually get higher conversions? How do you get more opt ins? First of all, you need to track, you need to measure, you need to see how people are interacting. And from there, you just start testing. It’s a game of testing. That’s all marketing is like, anyone can say, Oh, I’m an expert marketer and stuff, but nobody really has the answers. If we did have the answers as marketers, then you know, like we’d be everything’s unique, every profiles,
40:48
exactly like you and me could be selling the same exact product. And then we appeal to completely different people because some some people may say, Oh, I like to buy from guys with glasses because it’s, it’s more trust that way, you know, they may like how you speak compared to me, then another audience may say, Okay, I think I’ll go with this guy. He, he might know what he’s saying. He’s straight to the point, you know, so it’s different, we can be selling the same exact thing. But that’s just how polarity works
41:16
again. And then you can try to appeal to everyone. You can be polarizing, you can be strict with with your views and stuff. And then you would have the utmost respect from the people that you want to, to target. And then some people would be like, Okay, no, this guy is just not for me. Right. So those, there’s those elements. But coming back to the point on the page itself, you need to have certain elements. So for me, I’ve tested in the industry, while I would incorporate even now with clients who are doing huge numbers. And I
41:48
know what elements I need to plug in how to write the copy in a specific way, the text on the page, what type of images to use, subtle things, you know, that anyone without the eye for it would miss, but it does make a difference when you scale up and have the numbers. So it’s just a process of iteration and testing. So you start with something like the headline, because the whole purpose of the headline is to get them to go to the other section and read the rest, right. So when you write copy, there’s
42:18
something called the slippery slope technique, which is the first line is intended to get the person to read the second line. The second line is, you know, until you get them to take the action, which is click that button, make the sale, sign up, opt in, whatever it may be. So that the copy is one element then whatever you have to complement the copy to make it stand out, the visual imagery needs to be on point as well. The color scheme and stuff that you use is important as well. It can’t just be wild and crazy,
42:45
right? You need to conform to a color palette because you’re talking to the non-conscious, their subconscious mind at that point in time while they’re reading that text, but the imagery and the color scheme and everything is there. Then if you use video, if you use things like testimonials, if you use things like the CTA, so the button itself, what you see on that button, the color of that button, all of these things are really important. And it ain’t a science in one you know, and like I said, what may work
43:19
for one person may not work for another. And it comes down to testing what works on your audience, on your offer specifically. Yeah, I think that’s why a lot of brand owners or entrepreneurs kind of fall over is because the testing thing is, well, first of all, it’s quite specialized. It takes experience to know how to do it, you know, and I think a lot of patience also and a lot of budget. Yeah, which, you know, people under or in my experience kind of underestimate that, like, okay, got this product looks good.
43:49
We’ll do a landing page. We’ll spend a couple of hundred dollars, then don’t get a result. And then they’re like, okay, the product doesn’t work. Yeah. Whereas, you know, maybe not the product is the funnel. Yeah, exactly. So there’s a there’s there’s a thing, right? Like, if you don’t know how to make it work, it’s going to be hard. And you may think it’s expensive and stuff, but testing it doesn’t have to be expensive. You can literally do that with a simple tool or directly on your website, just splitting the traffic. If you’re
44:18
doing like what is called an A B test, where you have two versions of a page, like one with this headline on this headline, and you see which converts better, right? So it doesn’t need to be complicated where you start. Now, of course, this can go super deep. And there’s so many things to test. But it’s, it’s how it’s executed. A B testing, you can test until the cars come on. Yeah, like you never stop, you never stop A B testing. That’s, that’s the thing. Like, you don’t ever stop A B testing,
44:42
basically, right? But there’s other tests that you can do along the way in different segments of the funnel and stuff, different audiences, if you’re doing ads, for example, like all of these. Now, one thing is important, like I mentioned, the tracking of the data and knowing the numbers is important. But today we have like so many dashboards and stuff. But one thing I realized is like, using the manual way, which is just using a sheet and inputting that data, especially if you have like a marketing team and stuff, is super
45:11
important because they get to know those numbers daily, compared to just looking at a sheet, you become blind to it almost because it’s just like this x percent, this x percent, and they just regurgitate what’s on there. But manually doing this is worth 20 minutes, 30 minutes a day, because they understand the numbers, you know, compared to just spitting out what’s already on the screen. So what what kind of numbers would those be? Like, what would you say? So these are your KPIs? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you
45:39
recommend? So one would be the landing page conversion rate. So how many people that land on that page actually sign up, right? Or sales, sales page conversion, which is the amount of people convert to make this the sale, if it’s a sell, if you’re doing a webinar, the webinar show up rate. So how many people actually show up to the webinar that sign up because not everyone is going to, you may get 40%, 50%, depends, right? Then your conversion rate on on the sales side of things, like how many people
46:10
actually converting, how many people are converting on the sales page itself? Let’s say those who don’t show up, if you have a replay, like how many people are showing up to the replay? Yeah, so everything comes down to percentages. And as you scale, it’s going to be hard to track individually one by one saying this person did like, that’s not scalable, right? So we’re talking about scalability here. And I don’t want to reduce people to numbers and percentages. But the reality is it’s hard to say, okay, John signed up
46:38
for the webinar, and he didn’t show up, you know, so that’s just how it works. So at this point, is where you look at the numbers in the marketing, because you you need to have that creative mind. But at the same time, you need to have that analytical mind, you know, and sometimes that’s your strength and your experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes there are marketers who specialize like in process and or in creativity. But because of my experience, I’ve been able to kind of merge. So I write copy and I look at
47:04
numbers. And I do process because that’s just what I did for for many, many years. And I know how to do it. I know to do it very fast. So that that’s, that’s the thing about my unique experience. But everyone may have their strengths as well as a marketer. And then like the ads, how does this all come in? Because you know, a lot of people struggle with that. Yeah, big struggle. Yeah, finding the right platform, right. channel, what’s working, what’s not the creative, especially as an issue. And then testing
47:31
constant. Yeah. So yeah, so a good analogy I like about ads is like, okay, so ads is essentially traffic, right? traffic. Traffic is the amount of people visitors coming to your website to your sales page, your landing page, whatever it may be. So essentially, ads is getting that trafficked on tap. So you can control how much people how much visitors depending on how much you’re willing to spend on your marketing budget, compared to having a funnel go up and expecting people to show up. Like, that’s just not how it works.
48:07
Right. So a good analogy is like, if you create an offer and expect people to show up organically, it’s like doing a rain dance and expecting it to rain. But if you pay for ads, you’re basically in control of the tap and you can control the flow. And the more you spend, the more visitors you get, but then you need to get creative to actually get people to convert and stuff because you can spend money infinitely like big companies spend millions, you know, like weekly, monthly, just just to get people to see that
48:35
stuff like Coca Cola, McDonald’s, etc. Mindvalley. No, but Mindvalley tracks Coca-Cola and stuff. They just do it in this campaign. Yeah, it’s just awareness, right? They have billions. So spending a couple million a month, just getting people to know that they exist is good enough for them. But then you have the other companies like Mindvalley that track every dollar that goes out, how much comes back and this, the main metric, which is return on ad spend or ROAS. So for every dollar you put out,
49:03
you want to get back, you know, $2, $3, $4, $5, $10, $15, $20, whatever it is. So then you know, you have something scalable. So if you put out $1,000 out there and you can get back $5,000, then why stop putting out right? But then scaling as well is a science because you don’t want to spend too fast as well. The algorithm goes crazy. And then you start losing. So there’s there’s a science to it. Yeah. And I think that’s key for a lot of people, especially starting out and doing something is with talking to experts
49:30
or at least an agency that you know, like Multiplier or somebody who would be able to hold their hand and do some of the work, especially around the ads, copy, landing page, etc. optimization. Otherwise, you can for sure get lost in the world. Yeah, I mean, if you don’t know, you don’t know, and then you’re going to be burning money, right? So yeah, then I suppose the holy grail would be organic. So, you know, getting organic followers into funnel and converting those, because ads are expensive. So I
50:00
suppose more on content, content creation, sticky content, etc. What are your what are your thoughts on that? And what have you really seen work and what is working currently? Yeah, I mean, okay, so ads may be expensive, but if you know how to optimize it, it can work. And like I said, doing organic is the rain dance, right? It takes a while, but if your content is really good, and if you’re consistent, maybe it’ll take a year, two years, like you may be able to get a lucky break and in a couple months, it
50:32
takes off. But the reality is, it’s a grind for organic. So if you already know who your target audience is, you have the budget to spend on ads, I would say it’s a fast way to test your offers and see if it converts, because if you can get 100 people through that funnel, and you can tell how it’s converting, you can see what are the pain points in it and not getting people to convert, it’s better than waiting months to get 20 people to click on an offer. And you don’t really have substantial data, because then
50:59
it’s not statistically significant, right? Because over the length of time, the amount of people visit just doesn’t work. So there’s that. However, with organic, how to correct the code, I don’t know. But what I know works is consistencies. I’m not saying anything that’s new or unique or that’s just a reality. And I work with people who have like up to 21 million followers across social media right now, I’m doing campaigns for them. And they’re leveraging only organic, they’re not spending a cent on traffic and making millions
51:28
because 21 million is a big following. Yeah. But they spend years building up their audience, they’ve spent years putting out content like they in the outdoor matter what, when there was literally their mom liking one video out there, like they still continued for months and months for years and continued on the path. So now today they are rewarded, right? I was reading something yesterday about this YouTuber, Mr. Beast. I don’t look at this stuff. I don’t really know much about him, but I know he’s
51:59
consistent and they were doing like a case study and looking at some of his first video where he was counting to, I don’t know, 10,000, 100,000 over 24, 48 hours. And he did that in a video, you know, like, so for someone to start there and build up to, I know he’s huge now making millions all this, like, he’s the biggest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that takes dedication, right? So is, is if you can do something like that, not to that extent, but you know, just consistently do it. And it comes organic is coming down to
52:29
delivering value consistently and not getting burnt out, not stopping along the way, because eventually something will come out of it. If you’re, I don’t know, one, two, three years in, and nothing is coming at all. Like there’s signal, right? There’s signal. You’ll know like, okay, one thing catches on and you may get 20 people to see 20 views, a hundred views. One thing gets a thousand. Then you know, okay, there’s more of that. Yeah, exactly. You know, so you listen to the signal and you know, okay, something is
52:55
coming from there. This is sticking out. Let me focus or do more on there, you know, and from there you build up and behavioral behaviorally, like us as consumers out there, like I’m a consumer, you’re a consumer, right? Like behavior behaviors are changing with online interaction with device interaction. Like for example, like now people are GPT and stuff instead of Googling as well. So I don’t know the implications of that. So if I say, Oh, go start a blog now, but then, you know, like your target audience is like
53:26
a sophisticated one and they’re more advanced. So they don’t even use Google so much now. They just GPT and they get the answer. So then is it worth it, you know, investing in doing hundreds of blogs and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. And in And in the backend, like GPT still goes to Google, like how you would go to Google, they just compile it and you know, like maybe not Google directly, but the index and everything. But, but front end from a consumer perspective, we just want something easy and fast. So what we would do is the whole
53:54
landscape is changing. I mean, the next five years is going to be exactly totally different worlds. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We don’t even know what it’s going to be. Right. Like look at the extent to which GPT is performing tasks and how dependent everyone is on it now. Anyone that works, works behind the screen that is. So yeah, like we don’t know where it’s going, but essentially like if you can afford to do ads, I would, I would always say go for it, you know, but at the same time, you need to build up organic and
54:20
stuff as well. If you want a long term business, then that is 100% something that you still need to do. Yeah. Okay. So back to the, I mean, the closing steps of the funnel closing and you know, after sale I suppose is really important, especially after sale kind of gets forgotten until somebody wants to kind of resell something, but then they’ve forgotten, they’re not done the nurturing that’s required. What would be your key nuggets in those two steps? Yeah. So the actual close, if it’s something, let’s say, low ticket,
54:51
below three, $3,000, that can be done without the need for a sales call, usually, right? However, anything above that, it’s a bigger decision for anyone, no matter how much they have in their bank account. So in this instance, you need to have a call schedule where they can speak to a human being in this process, right? And this is where you get to take them over the line. Because usually, if someone already is on a sales call, they’re already somewhat sold because they know it is a sales call. They already product aware,
55:24
they know the offer, they know the price. Exactly. Exactly. So it’s you being that guy there on that call. And one thing I’ve learned is that how you set up the sales process is super important. So I’ve sold hundreds of thousands, and I’ve been selling hundreds of thousands, setting up this funnel for a client in less than one year, right? And this is high ticket, 10,000, 20,000. Now, by the time someone gets on a call, I was doing the closing myself as well. Because I’m building the funnel. So I need to understand
55:52
who these people are and everything. So it was important for me. But I’m not selling on that call. I’m going there, already set up the funnel in such a way where they’re opting in. So this is one of my highest performing funnels where they opt in to why they want to join in and get this product, right? And by the time they get on the call, my questions revolve around, okay, why you, why now, why this product? Why essentially, we should let you in. So then it’s not me. Yeah. So by the time I’m like, okay,
56:25
then yeah, we checked your background, you’re good to go. Do you want to pay in one payment or three installments? And that’s it, right? It’s 100%. It doesn’t work across the board for every single product, but it depends on how you set up what happens before you even get to that call. But yeah, like a lot of salespeople, they get to a call and then it’s like, yeah, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye now. Pressure, right? So that is, yeah, exactly. The whole, the whole shebang. But when I go on a call,
56:56
like even for my agency, I have calls every single week with CEOs, with entrepreneurs of really, really substantial companies, but I never, I’m selling on that call. It’s like, I’m asking questions about them to see if I can work with them, if I can actually help them out. And I would only know if I do this, right? I’m just probing. And then after that, it’s like, okay, I know this, here’s what I can do. And I don’t make any promises. Like I will come in, I will test, and I will see if this will work. But I
57:25
have more confidence if I have the data, so I know, okay, I see holes in the gap. So these holes can be plugged and maybe they can retain more water in there. That’s it. That’s what it’s about at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it depends, it depends across the board, right? So with high ticket, the sales process, that’s it. With low ticket, you can do that directly on the funnel, on the pages, on the video that you have on that page, if the person can deliver a good sales letter on that page itself
57:57
to take them over the edge as well. That’s important. Anything on off the sale? Like so you’ve made the sale and then I suppose, so bunch of magic. As a marketer, like the average marketer won’t think too much about this, right? However, this is where, to me, the real money is, because the initial sale is maybe just to cover the cost of acquisition. But on Foot in the door. Yeah, exactly. So it may cost you 100 bucks to get this customer and you made 100 bucks. However, after that, they’ve already become a paying
58:30
customer. So what else do you have? What other offers do you have? What other problems can you solve for them? And how best can you deliver value to this person? Stay true to the promises and deliver the promises that you’re actually saying, whether it’s transformation, whether it’s a product, whether it’s a service, whatever it may be, you need to deliver that and you need to always deliver. Exactly. Always on the promise over the phone, right? Then from there, it’s whatever you have to sell after. They’ve been through that
58:58
and they know. So you make your margin on the second, third. Exactly. You don’t make the money on the first product with lower ticket stuff, right? It always comes in what we call back end sales. So that’s where the real money is. So you always need to make sure. And the reality is all this stuff I gave out here and we went into, yes, it’s amazing, marketing funnels and stuff. But if you have an amazing product, it sells itself. That is number one. Have an amazing product and it sells itself because nothing
59:29
beats word of mouth. If I really enjoy this glass by the monks, then I’m going to tell Gawain, I’m going to tell my friends, I’m going to gift it because I’m already sold on that and it’s amazing for me. It makes the selling process just so much easier. Exactly. The product’s robust and the value’s there. It’s just really easy. Exactly. Then you don’t need to sell. It sells itself. And that’s the key to marketing. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. All right. Yeah, anything else we’ve kind of missed off or skipped or
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anything that you find really important these days or where you see things going? Here’s the thing. Just one thing I want to touch on. There’s always trends and there’s like, “Oh, here’s how you do this thing or this TikTok or this Instagram thing.” It comes and goes. It fades. But the principles of marketing has never changed because we’re still human beings and we still have needs and desires and wants and problems that need solving. And we still have these core things that we need to address
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in marketing to actually take them over the bridge, as I said. So this bridge can be elaborated, can be so many things. But the company, the entrepreneur, the offer creator who wins is the one who can make this bridge the least action is possible, the less steps across this bridge. And if you can find that sweet spot, then you’re on the money, you can add value, you can reach everyone you need to reach. Cool. I mean, yeah, I think it’s been pretty handy. People have definitely kind of taken something away from this I know I have.
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So yeah, thanks for that. I really appreciate it. Multiplier agency, we’ll put in the link below and we’ll put it in the description also. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming and sharing your deep knowledge and advice. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. No worries.