episode 26:
Unlocking Winning Talent: Insights from a Top Bali Head Hunter

00:35
Hi everyone, welcome to the new episode of Bali Business Club. Hi Sally. Hi Omri. Today we are going to talk about High and Low Head Hunters, which is a recruitment agency in Bali. So we’re going to go over the recruitment landscape, the talent search in Bali. Everybody thinks Bali is a holiday island, but there are a lot of, it’s also like a massive hub for companies to make business here and operate from here. So if you say, if you have companies, you have talent, you have talent, you have

01:14
recruiters and this is what you do. So thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to subscribe if you haven’t and we’ll be back in a minute with Sally Avenard. Welcome back to Bali Business Club podcast. So today we are with Sally Avenard who runs High and Low Head Hunters. High and Low Head Hunters. A little disclaimer and introduce the company. So this is a company that is part of Kosong Satu Group which is a business group that I run just for clarity. We started this company Four years ago.

01:53
Thank you, I wasn’t sure. Yeah. And it started as an answer to the problem we had in the group of the recruitment problem we had in the group basically before I was in charge of recruiting. Yeah. And we just as we were growing, we had too many. And I came to you as, hey, why don’t we make a recruiting agency? Yeah. And this is how this adventure started. So thank you for joining us today. Maybe you want to introduce you a little bit to start with. And then we’re going to talk about the

02:25
recruitment landscapes, the talents, how talent in Bali, what’s what is available, how it works, how the whole thing work. And discuss about other things. The highs and the lows. The high and the lows. Yeah. So I think I’ve been in Southeast Asia for nearly 15 years now. I moved to Hong Kong from London back in 2011. I did two years in Hong Kong. So my background is really working for luxury lifestyle hospitality groups like Super High and Concierge or membership programs. And I did a lot of commercial real estate,

03:05
which is super fast paced, like high pressure sales environments and account management as well, I would say. And then I moved to Bali in 2013. So it’s been 12 years here now. And I’ve done, I would say, the whole the whole suite of roles, like six years in hospitality, building something from scratch, building an FNB team from zero to like literally hosting big CrossFit retreats and weddings and yoga and things like this. So obviously you grow a network very quickly. And what I’ve realized in both Hong Kong and

03:38
Bali, it is all about the network. You really have to build your network. Your address book. Exactly. Your little black book is super important. And then, yep, I moved into more sales roles again with a luxury hospitality group that have land banking assets here. They have villas. They have beach clubs. So I was really in that space and managing teams, the sales teams, the real estate teams. Then COVID hit, which is when I had a chat with yourself about about launching this awesome recruitment agency.

04:13
All right. So interesting you talk about COVID. Maybe let’s start. I’m very interesting to know. I know already to talk about. Do you see a change in the way things are done since COVID? You were not a recruiter before, but you were also helping recruitment in the other companies that you were where you worked and now you’re full time headhunter. So do you see a shift? Is there a before COVID after COVID? When we launched the agency, it was obviously a very difficult time. And there were a lot of expats looking for

04:51
jobs or who were losing their jobs, like myself on the island. So obviously you’ve got this incredibly talented expatriate talent pool that were then in a very difficult position because it was very difficult to bounce on to another role. So I think a lot of expats left at that point. There was quite a big exit of expats and that sort of traditional way of hiring expats being brought over here and still having that big package, the flight ticket home. I think that has changed. That’s almost the traditional way.

05:27
Now things have become much more of a mutually agreeable conversation and discussion, the cultural fits, the values of the company, maybe all these sort of all singing or dancing expat packages, I would say are not as available as they were before. And of course, there’s been a big shift to stay local, hire local and really drive local teams here as well, local talent. But there’s a law that says you have to hire many locals for one. I mean, 10 locals for one foreigner. Exactly. Okay, interesting.

06:04
Interesting you talk about culture. Before we go into that, I would like you to tell me a quick overview of High and Low Headhunters. Like who are your clients? What are the type of jobs that you’re looking for? I mean, talents that you’re looking for? And so on and so forth. You can give us just a few nuggets towards understanding like who are you? So yeah, I mean, obviously, because of my background, we are very focused on real estate and hospitality. We’ve also moved into. Which are the main.

06:41
The main drivers. Industries here, yeah. Super buzzy, competitive businesses. Which is great. So obviously, it keeps us very busy. But yeah, I mean, on the real estate side, we obviously help to build like architectural studios, your drafters, your civil engineers, your structural engineers, all the way up to a very senior project manager. And then on the hospitality side, it could be anything from social media managers, which is very much the you know, the role of the moment all the way up to your CMO.

07:14
But obviously, driving sales, marketing all the way up to GMs of hotels. We tend to stay more in the boutique luxury hotel space, you know, where it’s very brand driven, or it has a real sustainable element to it. It’s not the big, big international brands. That’s not that’s not our space. But the beach clubs and anything that’s hospitality, lifestyle driven, obviously. So, yeah, we’re talking to everyone. You do other industries as well. Yeah, also retail, a bit of tech.

07:48
Yeah, so on and so forth. You said the word culture earlier. And I find this very interesting because as a CEO, I’ve had a lot of dealings with the cultural gap. There is between local and foreigners. There’s also the cultural gap between what’s as far as the foreigners are concerned between what they expect of Bali and what the actual market is or the actual life is. If you could touch on that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think we were talking earlier that obviously Bali is it’s actually very

08:23
fast paced and dynamic, even though the island is supposed to be slow, slow rhythm culturally, let’s say. But there’s a lot of expats that are obviously looking to build careers here or even relocating here. It’s yeah, it’s really important, I think, to understand the cultural landscape that we’re in. Obviously, I speak to a lot of, let’s say, high level senior or C-suite expats that are coming in from maybe Dubai, Hong Kong, Singapore. Obviously, I’ve lived in Hong Kong before as well.

08:57
So the salary brackets, let’s say, are very different. I mean, you’ve already got a 15 to 20 percent difference between Bali and Jakarta. So already you’ve got to manage your expectations there. And then, of course, if you’re coming in from overseas, yeah, the salaries are a lot lower here. So I think for a lot of expats, you know, why are you moving here. I mean, for me, it’s it’s a lifestyle choice. You know, I’m bringing up my kids here. I love running, you know, recruitment agency.

09:30
It’s very rewarding. Did you bring them here or you made them here? I made them here. You made them here. Made in Bali. If I’m not mistaken. Yes. Yeah. So for me, it’s a lifestyle choice. I think career wise, if you want to stay on those, you know, much higher salary ranges, then it’s it’s probably better to continue to consult maybe from an overseas company in Dubai and then be based here and go back and forth. If you’re an expat. A lot of people, I mean, I’ve been here for decades.

10:00
So a lot of people I see coming, they have this holiday mindset still. And they are they’re looking for work, but they are not. I mean, they come with flip flops at the interview. Yeah. Yeah. Do you see do you see that being a thing? A lot in the expat community, I mean, the expats that are looking for for work. Do you think they have the right mindset? Do they understand that Bali is more than a holiday place? It’s also a business hub. Or how do you what are your experience? What’s your experience with that?

10:40
And some advice. Yeah. The expats out there. I mean, yes, I think a lot of people think that I spend my day in my bikini, which clearly is not the case. I’m in the office 24/7 or obviously out, In bikini but in the office. But I think, yeah, OK, if you want that lifestyle, obviously, there’s the digital. There’s the whole digital nomad set up here, which I think it works very well for a lot of. These guys have bikinis. Yeah, exactly. These are the guys. But yeah, otherwise, again, we go back to the cultural fits

11:12
because we we work with a lot of the hospitality groups. We we work with like the F you know, a big FNB role in a in a beach club or or a general manager role. But these companies are very successful brands. They have their company culture. And I think it’s very easy to see quite quickly with the employer if that profile is going to be a match. This also leads into now something we’re seeing a lot is the the working culture of the company and the onboarding process and how key it is, because we’re now

11:48
running some interviews actually for a greenhouse gas consultant. So obviously this is targeting an expat profile to lead a local team. But the first part of the interview process is actually let’s see if you’re a match with us. And we share prior to that first interview, their working cultural working culture, internal company document. And I think this is really nice because then the expat can read and see, you know what, I really am a match with their values to a street. Yeah, with their mission like this.

12:19
Yeah, this matches me. This is what I want. And and then, you know, already you’re on a sort of successful interview process because then obviously the next steps pass to more technical expertise, which is required for this role. But already having that working culture, it will just make a smooth interview process. And then of course, the onboarding will be so easy, like easy flow. So do you think there’s more jobs than talent or more talent than jobs? I think at the moment, it’s more talent than jobs.

12:48
I mean, definitely for expats. Yeah, for expats. But for I mean, we place 80 to 90 percent is local candidates here in senior roles. So marketing director, sales manager, general manager. And we get a handful of expat roles. But that’s why we need to be on it. We need to know who’s hiring. We need to know who would have the budget for hiring expats and obviously sponsoring them because they require the work visa here to work legally. So that’s obviously why we need to be very tapped in and know

13:22
who’s hiring at all times. Sure. About the work visa is important to say that. Bring that in. Just a quick one. Unlike America, where you get a green card, for instance, or France, you get here a permit to work for one company. You’re not I mean, there are some specific visas for freelancers. But otherwise, most is called the KITAS. Most the KITAS are sponsored by one company and you work for this one company. If you stop working with one company. You exit. That’s it. OK, give us some names of companies you work

13:54
for just to give us an idea of like what’s your who you deal with and so on. Confidentiality wise, I don’t think I could say names. It was the right answer. Good. Good test. So the type of company. So as I said, so luxury boutique hotels, five star, they’re very brand driven. So we really understand their values, each layer, each department, you know, what their ethos is, what they need. So we’ve placed a couple of expatriate GMs for this sort of level of property. I find with the smaller properties,

14:33
obviously, it’s it’s easier to understand what they need. It’s a lot more personalized. All the beach clubs, obviously, all the all the hospitality groups, you know, on an F&B level, Bali has just become the most incredible foodie scene. It’s incredibly competitive. So it doesn’t matter if you’re like the top pizza place or the top beach club or but it’s all like a nightlife spot. But visibility brands. Yeah, it’s extremely competitive. So obviously, social media managers are so

15:05
key because they’re all fighting to have, you know, is it the Tuesday spot? We’re doing our DJ night or it’s really like a strip, you know, in certain places. Canggu is such a hub for all these venues. Some are single outlets, some are multi outlets. Yes, obviously, we know who’s moving and shaking in that space, which is really important. And then obviously the big property developers, property investment and finance groups, because we also do all the layer of HR legal accounting.

15:39
So we obviously have a big talent pool in that area also. I mean, you found a lot of people for us, for our companies as well. Yeah, you keep us busy. Money. Let’s talk about money. OK. How much do you make? How much do they make? So if you can give us just for people, I mean, a lot of us, a lot of the expats here who are watching know already the Bali landscape and they’ve worked here for a while. So I said they are founders, they are CEOs and they understand what salaries like. A lot of our viewers are also people abroad

16:14
that want to come to Bali or are new in Bali. And I think it’s interesting to let people know what they can expect in terms of salary. So if you can give us a few examples, for instance, like a few job positions for expats and for locals. And also, is there a difference between local salaries and expats salaries? If there is one why, how is it justified? Yeah. Yeah, if you can just touch on that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, obviously it’s a very broad question, but I mean, just based on experience,

16:50
you know, we place, let’s say, marketing manager position, head of marketing, whatever title you want to give it. But that could be anything from local or foreign. This is expat. Expats? So we’re talking expats, here. yeah. It could be anything from, let’s say, quite broad, but maybe 45 to 90 juta. It depends on the company. And so, wait, hold on, juta is millions of rupiah. OK, so that would be what’s 45, that’s like three thousand dollars USD. Yeah. And 90 juta is 60 ish. So between three and six

17:29
thousand dollars. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then if we look at maybe a GM role, but for smaller number of keys properties like we work for, it could be anything from six to nine thousand US a month for an expat. Yeah. What kind of perks do they get to get like 13th month? Is there like insurance paid, housing paid? Yeah, I mean, typically private health insurance, obviously they’re sponsored by the working visa. There can be some housing allowance. I think it depends because something that’s

18:02
really come into play in Bali is obviously it’s so busy and so popular is the traffic. So I think it’s actually quite key for expats to be closely located to their place of work. Otherwise, they’re just going to spend hours in the traffic, which isn’t very, yeah, doesn’t really help for your work, your work culture. So, yeah, they need to be close. So maybe housing allowance is also offered. Scooter, sometimes I know we sometimes have done that. Yeah, sometimes all transport. Yeah. Because

18:32
maybe not a lot of people want to drive scooters here. So, yeah, maybe maybe then you drive a car and you lose an hour in the morning. Exactly. Yeah. And I think like we were saying before, I don’t think these big relocation packages and flights are coming into play as much. I think it’s more a mutually agreeable discussion on what perks and benefits should be. And it might come in after three months. This is more like an corporate world of Jakarta, Singapore, Hong Kong, whatever. But Bali is still not

19:03
at that level, I believe. How do you source your talent? All about network, obviously. Yeah, it’s knowing who’s moving. Obviously, I have CV’s that are coming across my desk like every day. I have quite the photographic memory. So I obviously remember who is looking. But we have a very strong talent pool in all those key roles that we work on regularly. Yeah, we definitely know the expats that are looking. We’re very well connected. We also naturally ask for candidate referrals, which come about a lot.

19:42
And LinkedIn, for me, is a big source, obviously, when it’s a much more corporate position. Yeah, those are the main the main sources, I would say. LinkedIn is the big one. Everyone uses LinkedIn nowadays. Do you see a difference, the level of skills or attitude or whatever, or the metrics between, for example, talents in bigger cities like Jakarta, Singapore and those who are here? I think typically when we start a new position and we start to partner with a new company to collaborate on that hire,

20:15
we will ask that question through the due diligence process. Are they looking to bring someone in from Jakarta or Surabaya, let’s say? What does that imply? It implies that they’ve probably already gone through a bit of a hiring process already and tried to do some sourcing on their own terms internally and haven’t met that process with success. So maybe they want to spread the net wider and look in Jakarta to see if another profile might meet slightly higher expectations. And then, of course, as we mentioned,

20:49
there’s a discrepancy in what you would earn in Jakarta. But I think now most candidates from Jakarta, most profiles that want to relocate here, they know that there’s a difference in the salary package. So they would come down a little bit. So what’s the percentage? Around 15, 20 percent. So salaries are 15, 20 percent higher in Jakarta, for instance. And locals versus bule? Yeah, going back to that question, I think there’s been a big shift now and actually it’s really starting to meet.

21:22
It’s not as diversified as it was before. So one role that we’re working on at the moment, which is director of marketing for a luxury hotel, it’s around the 40 to 50 juta mark, which is actually quite similar to what an expat. So 40 to 50 juta? 3,000 US. That’s 3,000 US. Yeah, and in this instance, this particular local profile, she’s quite international. She’s been to the Maldives, she’s been to other locations. Obviously, she has a much more international outlook.

21:57
So typically these kind of profiles are in high demand because they can really bring that international mindset to the role here and reach bigger markets, basically, and attract a wider audience to that property. So therefore, I would say the salary is starting to become more of a match and people, employers are willing to look more local. On the agency level, I’m a company, I’m looking for a talent. I call you. What happens next? If you can walk me through the process, how long does it take and who is involved and

22:34
what are the different steps and what happens during those steps, what do I get, how much do I pay? So typically myself or our senior key account manager will have either an initial meeting face to face or an alignment call. So it’s like a due diligence process, I would say, on both sides because we want to learn everything about you and you need to know exactly how we work and what we can bring to the table. So we have a very open conversation, but we need to get all the nitty gritty details,

23:05
understand your working culture, what will be the interview process, what’s the department layers. So it is detailed, but we need all this information. So it’s like 45 minutes? Yeah, 30 to 45 minute call or face to face, get to know each other. You are in? Pererenan, yeah, in north of North Canggu. North Canggu, yeah. North West Canggu, yeah. Very popular area. Yeah, so once we’ve done that, obviously we receive the job description. We go through that in detail, like what is your ideal candidate?

23:39
We really go through all the detail because… And also how long have you been looking? Because maybe you’re coming to us because you’ve already started the process and it’s meeting a lot of challenges and of course bottlenecks, as we call in the industry. So we go through that and really understand what issues have you faced and how we can help and obviously improve it. So once we’ve got all those details, then we have a standard agency agreement, which we send out to the hiring party, which

24:05
explains all our T’s and C’s. We do a very detailed initial screening process. So we either finding talent from our talent pool or we’re sourcing or we’re contacting candidates that we’re already aware are looking to move. We’re also receiving new applicants daily. So we have a real mix of profiles that we’re overseeing that we want to drive and obviously send to you in the initial batch. And we provide very detailed candidate summary reports basically. So the CV, the report,

24:41
there’s a personality test. We do all the background checks and references. And then we really are there from A to Z to support you through the interview process, the offer process, the contract process. We stay with you really through the onboarding. So what’s that? Typically, it’s around two to four weeks for us to find the talent, which is quite quick. For more niche positions, it will obviously take a bit longer and we manage expectations on that on the first call. And then, yeah, typically it’s the fastest,

25:14
I think, from literally submitting the profile to signing for them to start is around one month, one and a half months. But you also have to take into account applicable notice periods. So obviously, the more senior profiles, they might have two or three months contractual notice period. So if they are not abroad and they need to relocate, what percentage of talents have to relocate and which percentage are already in Bali? Yeah, it’s only about 10 percent would be relocating from Jakarta or from overseas.

25:45
OK. Yeah, all bigger, bigger cities around. How do you find these guys that are not in Bali? I mean, Bali, the network is very small. We know a lot of people. So do you have like partnership with other agencies or with, you know, recruiters there? How does that work? Yeah, I mean, more, I think, just in the space that I’ve worked in, I can go back to kind of groups that I used to work with across Southeast Asia. And I actually asked for a lot of I asked for a lot of referrals. And typically everyone is in the same space.

26:17
You know, even Hong Kong FNB groups or Singapore FNB groups, people that I’ve worked with in the past, you know, who are very high, let’s say culinary directors. So sometimes when I’m looking for what we what we could say is a unicorn, because it’s almost the impossible placement or the impossible profile to find, it’s you’ve got to go deeper further. Use your network and a What’s a unicorn? A unicorn is.. The perfect dude? It’s the gem. And I’m like, OK. That don’t even exist.

26:46
Yeah, but this is the yeah, challenge that I love. We’re quite good at unicorns because I think it just makes you laser focused. You really go to the point and you and you can find the profile. Dig deep. So it’s it’s fun. Yeah. And obviously then when we do find this unicorn, the hiring party is very happy. Yes, you found us the gem. A month, do you find? I think it’s one or two, one or two every quarter, I would say. OK, so the whole point of naming a unicorn just to say that they don’t

27:23
exist or very rarely, right? Very, very rarely. You you basically never find the perfect fit. Yeah, there’s always an adaptation between both parties. Yeah. OK. And just on the process. So we are a success based agency, so there’s no transaction or no fee to pay until we found your unicorn or your or your super duper profile. So we actually issue our invoice on the first official day of their work as as per the employment contract that’s been signed by both parties. And we have a fixed fee, which is one and a

27:58
half times the monthly salary. So that’s our fee. So how does that work? If I’m if I’m I mean, forgive my my candid question, but if I’m a company and I’m looking for a talent, I’m going to call you as I said, I’m looking for this amazing guy, this unicorn. Sure. And you start working, but I’m not going to stop searching. Of course. At the same time. So what what might happen is that I’m going to find it and you would have worked for nothing. Yeah. How does that work?

28:27
What are the translate? Well, we’re very we’re very open about that at the beginning. We ask which other agencies are you working with because we need to know who our competition is. Sometimes we’re very one on one with the with the employer and they don’t work with other agencies because they we have a great partnership. It’s been a long term partnership with a lot of the clients we work with. Sometimes, obviously, if it’s I think if it’s a new player coming to the market or a

28:55
new company, then of course, they tend to go to the market. So then they contact all the agencies. So we just have to, I would say, adjust our our priority. We have to look at our pipelines and we have to look at our priorities. And obviously, if we’re in competition, well, it depends. Sometimes competition is healthy, right? And and we know that we’ve got access to that level of talent and we’ll still come in on top. But I guess our biggest competitor will be you, in fact, because we are we’re competing

29:26
against you because maybe you have your internal HR who’s been searching for some time. Or maybe which happens all the time. But a friend says, oh, hey, I know this profile. You should meet. Boom. And so there’s a natural introduction that happens. And then we get cut out of the equation. But that’s part of the game. I think so. Yeah, there’s no constituency fee or whatever. No, no. Maybe we should think about it. We can. OK, so you touched on competition. Can you? I mean, I remember when we started

30:00
this company, there were basically no competition. Yeah. So what’s what does the landscape look like now? I think we’ve always discussed this together. There’s plenty of business for everyone on this island, even though there’s quite a few. It’s growing. Yeah. So I’m never twiddling my thumbs. It’s always very, very busy at the agency. So, yeah, I mean, we we know some of the big players in the international hotel space. That’s not an area we work with because I think it’s it’s very corporate.

30:32
And a lot of the placements are overseas as well. So these agencies are based here. No, they’re based here, but they are in Jakarta. No, in Bali. And they have some synergy with other agencies in Jakarta. But they’re placing in Korea, they’re placing in the Seychelles, in the Maldives, a bit of Oman. So obviously they’re much more international. We are obviously very Bali focused, but we do placements in Jakarta. We do placements in Sumba. We do placements in Lombok. We do placements in Nusa Lembongan.

31:05
So we are Yeah, we also do some of the islands, the outer islands, which, of course, you visited a lot because also these markets are really booming in terms of hospitality. Lombok for sure. Nusa Lembongan. It’s completely exploded. It’s one of the islands that’s just 30 minutes by boat from here. So obviously we do the whole spread, I would say. The other players, I think they aren’t just pure recruiters. We match. We’re just matchmakers. We want to find talent and make the match with the companies.

31:39
So it’s really pure, pure recruitment. I think some of the other agencies, they’re doing what we do, but they’re also doing payroll, other employee benefits, HR training, all of these elements. So you’re specialized in job hunting. Do you get a lot of talent coming naturally to you? I mean, are you famous enough? Does my phone buzz every day with talent looking for jobs? Yes. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s great. It’s a good position to be in. I’m very happy to be a go-to.

32:15
And actually, when we launched the agency, I wanted to actually help expats in a kind of consultative way to navigate the landscape, especially if you’ve only just arrived here. I’ve been here a long time like you, so I know how it works. So obviously I want to be able to give this advice and also manage people’s expectations because it’s not just like that that you find a job here. But also, I’m so happy to work with local talent. And I think in each space, they all have their network.

32:50
So if I place a project manager for a big property development company, I know he’s doing great. He’s happy. He’s still there. He’s been there three years. But I can always hit him up and say, “Okay, are any of your network looking?” And of course, he has his project manager WhatsApp group, and he sends our jobs to his mates. And then he knows who’s looking. So it’s kind of this way you can go into each group. And it’s the same even with like a chief engineer role, which is one of the more

33:19
challenging roles, I would say here. But again, there’s always going to be a group. Yeah, of course. HR groups. Yeah, people of the same industry know the people of the industry. Yeah, so that’s nice. Give us a couple of big wins during that four-year life of the agency. Well, I think I’m very happy that I’ve placed a couple of GMs and they’re still there. So this is really rewarding for me. And I also saw that one of the properties has just become the number one hotel in Ubud out of 81.

33:54
Yeah, so obviously I’m very happy to know that that person has grown so much with the company, but also their rankings have gone up. They’ve changed a few things around, you know, but he’s very happy. We have another GM down the road. I speak fluent French, so we also have a lot of French clients. So this helps a lot also. So I placed a lovely French GM. He’s still there. So, yeah, I think when they’re still there, you know they’re happy. And I also know the employer is happy.

34:25
Executive chef also for a five-star hotel. They can be unicorns. Where do you find those guys? Like chefs, I guess they are already getting somewhere. They’re all moving in the same space, you know. They all follow certain brands, certain level of brands, certain hospitality groups. So it’s really just a case of are they looking to move? Are they happy where they are? You place ads. Yeah, we place ads. But yeah, I mean, my expat’s executive chef talent pool is quite active. So I can just say, hey, are you ready

35:01
Yeah, and then it happens quite quickly. Biggest fail? Ooh. We don’t want to know. Well, it was a low point. No, I mean, it’s only happened once in four years of running the agency. But we were sourcing a talent for, let’s say, a people culture role. So it’s a big mix. People culture, what is that? It’s a mix of HR. It’s a mix of general affairs. You need to have like a legal background, like hopefully a law degree. So this is a bit of a combination role. It can be quite tricky.

35:36
But we found a profile that ticked all the boxes. He relocated over the weekend to start the role on the Monday. No show. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it’s happened. Really? It’s happened once in four years. The company was expecting… Ready for him to arrive at 8 a.m. Wow. Didn’t rock up. Local or foreigner? Local. Yeah. And we, of course, tried to contact the profile several times. And boom, disappeared. So this happens. And we do also talk to our clients about quite a lot of circumstantial factors

36:10
that can come into play. But it’s not your fault really. We can’t really take the blame, but then they could say, “Oh, maybe you’re not sourcing correctly.” But he was ready to rock. He was in contact with us all weekend. And then on the Monday, boom. Did you know what happened? No. We still don’t know to this day. Still don’t know till this day? Yeah. It happens. Quick one about AI. So what’s the role of AI? Do you actually use yourself, AI? I’m not talking about chat GPT or whatever,

36:36
just on a daily basis. But is AI part of the recruitment? Are there special tools, like AI tools for recruitment? Tell me a little bit more about this. I think the mission of the agency is to keep the human touch and the human interaction. I’m still quite old school. I want to meet as many people as I can face to face. You know, I still believe in body language, how they present themselves. Are they punctual? How do they dress? So there’s all these elements that I think are still really important.

37:09
AI is obviously now coming into play. We’re not actively using it, but I find from the hiring side, they are now implementing that. So when we have our discovery call with the client, we openly ask, OK, what do you think about our process, our screening process and other elements you want to add? So one client recently actually submitted to us like an AI interview grid assessment sheet. So it’s quite in depth and I actually really enjoyed using it. So what is that? What do you like? So this was an operations

37:47
manager role for a co-working space. So we have a lot of co-working spaces here in Bali and it has an F&B offering as well. So the person needs to manage all these departments. So what the AI interview grid assessment documented, is it punches out, let’s say live scenarios. What would you do in this situation if you didn’t have enough daily footfall on this particular day? What would you do if your number two didn’t turn up to work and you were short on staff? So they put all these scenarios into play

38:21
and basically the grid system allows you to go through and tick. It’s like a performance rating and then it punches out a score at the end. So then it’s right. I want it. Yeah, it’s cool. I’ll send it to you. So it’s very consistent and at the end, you could end up with a candidate who’s got 72 out of 100. You’ve got another profile 85 out of 100. Which co-working space was that? Confidentiality. No, I cannot say. It’s a new cool space in Berawa. Come on. Let’s promote them a little bit.

38:50
That’s as much as I can say. But I think it was a very interesting process from our side as well to go into more detail. And I think this is being built into the interview process. It’s live scenarios. What would you do in this situation? You actually need to unfortunately put the candidate more on, how do you say, under pressure to see how they will react in certain situations. Because otherwise you could just hire someone from the CV. It looks great. You get the reference. But actually what would they

39:19
do in these live situations? So I think it’s dependent on the role. I think that was really interesting in the operation side. I think it’s going to become really useful for hospitality positions. HR legal accounting is still very set. Set skills, you know. Then it’s just company culture, etc., etc. But these more operational roles, I think these live scenarios and AI coming into the interview process was really beneficial. And we successfully placed because of it. Do you feel that AI, since

39:50
AI is accessible by everyone, some roles, I mean there’s less demand for some roles because it’s been replaced by AI, like a social media manager. Could be, but I don’t think it’s relevant to Bali because as an employer now, if I’m looking for a social media manager, which is one of the most popular positions, because it’s all about your brand visibility, the competitiveness in the market space, they’ve got to understand that venue. What’s the values? What’s the look

40:21
What’s the client demographic? Who do we want to bring in the door? Who’s our competitors? You know, as a social media manager, they should be going out there and within two kilometres benchmarking, who are the big players? Yeah, AI can’t do that. Because every night it’s like, who’s the cool nightclub? Who’s the sunset spot? Who’s the best bar? Who’s got the best DJ? Who’s shaking the best cocktails? So you need to understand every layer of the brand, you know, from the F&B, from the Decor.

40:48
I mean, even the interior design here, it’s so competitive. You’ve got to up your game and make the space look cooler than the cool spots. So for me, as social media manager, not, you need to see the portfolio, maybe set them a little assessment if you want that to be part of the interview process. But I don’t think you can replace that role with AI yet. Is it OK to come to a job interview with flip flops and shorts? It’s an absolute no-no. OK. Absolute no-no. I mean, even the big beach

41:17
clubs, you know, they will reject, how do you say, guests wearing singlets. Yeah, singlets is a big no-no. Singlets or flip flops. I mean, I’ve had countless people coming to job interviews or meeting me for work that comes with flip flops. And for me, it’s a no. It’s an absolute no. Direct hard no. Yeah, hard no. I mean, if you can’t understand that this is not the time to wear flip flops, then what’s coming next? Yeah, we always tell our candidates, please dress well, please be punctual.

41:52
I mean, it’s simple stuff. Be on time, you know, predict the traffic a little bit. Arrive 10 minutes earlier. It’s paramount as well. Exactly. First impression is everything. So the flip flops? No. You’re late? No. It just doesn’t work. Well, thank you for all of that. Is there something you want to add? No, I think we’re all good, actually. We’re going to do a little game. We call that quick fire questions. I’m going to ask you questions. The only answer you can give is yes, no, or pass.

42:26
No thinking. You have like one second to answer. And we can do that for one minute. OK. OK? Ready. Ready? Yes. OK. Can talent exist without discipline? Yes. Are soft skills harder to find than hard skills? Yes. Is productivity harder to maintain in Bali? Yes. Is a bad hire worse than no hire? Yes. Do you feel guilty working too much? Yes. Would you hire your younger self? Yes. Definitely. Do companies confuse urgency with importance? Yes. Do women still need to prove more in business? Yes. Do you secretly judge

42:59
people’s LinkedIn profiles? Yes. I don’t do it secretly. I just do it openly. It’s like, “Look at this, what is that?” Yeah, I do. So funny. Can AI replace interviews? No. Have your kids ever embarrassed you in public? Who is writing these questions? Totally, yes. Yes. Have you ever wanted to quit your own business? No. Do you enjoy having the final say? Yes. Is complaining more acceptable in France? Yes. Is attitude more important than experience? Yes. Do you think you will ever move back to England?

43:31
No. And that’s one minute. I love it. Why would you move back to England? It’s too rainy in England. Very depressing. I mean, I love it, but no. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. It was great. As always. Long live High and Low. High and Low Headhunters. If anyone has a need for recruitment, feel free to contact Sally. We’ll put the link to the website under and some phone number, maybe, I don’t know. And there is a form on the website where talent can

44:09
submit their resume as well. Sure. Yeah. I think you’re in the process of revamping the whole website as well. Very exciting. Thank you very much. Thank you. See you soon. See you soon. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you.